Bonus Episode: Beyond the Sewers of Paris! We Were Born for This Moment (Ep. 203 - Annie)

November 22, 2018 Matthew Baume

This Week’s Guest: Kate Kendell

Thanks to everyone who supports The Sewers of Paris on Patreon -- with your pledges I'm able to release monthly bonus episodes like this one. This week we'll be going beyond The Sewers of Paris with someone for whom I am truly grateful. Kate Kendell is the outgoing director of the National Center for Lesbian rights. Over the last 22 years of history-changing moments for LGBTQ people, she's not only had a front row seat, but she's been one of the key figures pushing those moments forward. I'm so excited to bring you this conversation, ranging from the moment she discovered live theater, to proudly working for the most hated organization in Utah, to becoming an LGBTQ community leader, and what she sees next for queer liberation.

And BTW, I hope you'll join us for the next Sewers of Paris live chat, with special guest, performer Timmy Roghaar. That's this weekend -- Saturday November 24 at 2pm pacific. There's a link at the top of the Sewers of Paris twitter feed.

Head over to SewersOfParis.com to see clips of the stuff we talk about on each episode of the show. And for more queer podcasting, check out Queens Of Adventure to hear drag queens on an epic Dungeons & Dragons quest. That’s at QueensOfAdventure.com.

This Week’s Recommendation: Sonnet 116

Thanks again to Kate for joining me. I'm just so inspired by the work she does. In fact, Kate was one of the people who inspired me to become an activist. I was living in San Francisco in 2004 when the city began issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples on Valentine's Day. My bus went right past City Hall on the way to work, and I remember seeing the couples lined up around the block. And I remember seeing the photo on the front page of the Chronicle -- Mayor Gavin Newsom, now the incoming governor of California, marrying lesbian pioneers Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon, and in the background Kate Kendel looking on overcome with emotion.

I'm torn on what to recommend this week. If you want to relive that incredible time, you should definitely look up some of that news coverage from 2004, featuring stunned activists and couples racing to marry. Or look up the infamous clip of Kate Kendell swearing on live TV in reference to Proposition 8. Or you might want to check out my book, Defining Marriage, which includes stories from couples who lived through that time as well as Kate's experience fighting Prop 8.

But I think my main recommendation this week is going to be a Shakespearean sonnet that Kate mentioned, Sonnet 116, which begins, "Let me not to the marriage of true minds admit impediments." Often read as a declaration of same-sex love, it was set to music by Rufus Wainwright -- you can find that with a quick YouTube search -- and it's absolutely lovely. "Love is not love which alters when it alteration finds, or bends with the remover to remove," the sonnet goes. Out of all of humanity's attempts, over the centuries, to explain in words what love is, I think this might be my favorite.

Stuff We Talked About

Bartleby, the Scrivener: A Story of Wall Street

By Herman Melville

The Beast in the Jungle

By Henry James

To Kill a Mockingbird

By Harper Lee

What Happens in a Gay Bar (Ep. 202 - Lady Gaga)

November 15, 2018 Matthew Baume

This Week’s Guest: Bryan Lowder

This week's episode is going to be a bit of a song and dance. My guest is Bryan Lowder, associate editor at Slate and co-host of the Outward podcast. Known now for his cerebral essays and thoughtful analysis of queer culture, as a college student Bryan was drawn to New York's underground dance clubs, where years ago he found inner peace, and also encountered up-and-coming artists like Lady Gaga.

And the next Sewers of Paris live chat is this weekend -- Saturday November 17th at 2pm pacific. I hope you'll join us for a fun friendly chat about whatever entertainment has been changing YOUR life lately. And then mark your calendars for the next livestream, the Saturday after Thanksgiving, November 24th. There's a link at the top of the Sewers of Paris twitter feed.

Huge thanks to everyone who makes The Sewers of Paris possible with a pledge of a dollar or more a month on Patreon. There's rewards for folks who back the show -- just click "Support the Show on Patreon." Or you can support The Sewers of Paris for free by leaving a review on your podcast platform of choice -- that really helps people find the show.

This Week’s Recommendation: It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia

Thanks again to Bryan for joining me. Check out his Outward podcast wherever podcasts are casted. And for my recommendations this week, take a look at the recent season finale of the show It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. Normally a cynical sitcom where everything goes wrong and everyone's the butt of a joke, the last episode of season 13 takes a surprisingly heartfelt and sincere turn.

For most of the episode, the character of Mac, who's been out for about of year, laments that he doesn't know what his place is in the gay community. And what's worse, his adoptive father Frank tells him that he just doesn't get the whole gay thing. That leaves Mac with nowhere to turn, and no words to express himself.

So he stops trying to use words. The episode culminates in, of all things, an interpretive dance that should be funny and stupid and a fiasco but instead it's a powerful expression of turmoil and confusion and abandoning language to simply express oneself through their body.

Watching it in isolation, it might come off as cheap sentimentality -- but because of a context, a sitcom sacrificing its trademark cynicism for real heart, I think it comes off as brave. And that's why it feel so lovely when Frank, the adoptive father, finally whispers at the end, "Oh my God, I get it."

Stuff We Talked About

What Makes You Have a Fabulous Life (Ep. 201 - Madonna)

November 8, 2018 Matthew Baume

This Week’s Guests: David and John

How do you measure your success? For a lot of us it's career or fame or money or family, but the common theme among all of those is happiness. That is, what makes you happy? But often happiness as a goal gets drowned out by the things that we think are supposed to get us there. My guests this week are John and David, a husband-and-husband team behind the Queer Money podcast. They met on the dance floor and formed a bond that's only grown stronger for more than a decade. And one secret to their relationship's longevity has been some honest, and at times difficult, conversations about whether they needed to change everything about how they were living their lives.

BTW, I hope you'll also join us for the next Sewers of Paris live chat on November 17 at 2pm pacific. There's a link at the top of the Sewers of Paris twitter feed.

This Week’s Recommendation: Marilyn Monroe & Madonna

Thanks again to John and David for joining me. It's a real pleasure to have double guests every now and then, and I have a double recommendation this week as well. Start with Marilyn Monroe in the film Gentlemen Prefer Blondes -- specifically the number Diamonds are a Girl's Best Friend, in which she's wearing a pink strapless grown and is presented with all manner of riches by tuxedoed chorus boys. Then once you've watched that, jump over to Madonna's music video for Material Girl, shot 30 years later, in which she wears a pink strapless gown and is presented by riches while surrounded by chorus boys.

Both songs are beautiful, but there's an interesting contrast between them. Marilyn's character is enamored with riches, while Madonna -- despite the song's lyrics -- dismisses them in favor of simple romance. Madonna clearly employed comparisons to Monroe throughout her career in the 80s, and but she never overdoes it -- it's never an imitation, but instead a reference from which she quickly diverges.

Madonna's agreeing to Marilyn's sex appeal, but she adopts a third-wave feminist spin by turning herself from an object to be acquired into a sexual being whose needs must be met. As the lyrics conclude, it's her experience that's made her rich -- built her personality -- and that's a greater value than any diamond.

Thanks to everyone who's rated and reviewed The Sewers of Paris. Thanks to all the listeners who keep the show going -- there's rewards for backers. Head over to SewersOfParis.com and click "Support the Show on Patreon" to join the folks who make the show possible.

Stuff We Talked About

She Made me Dress up as the Pink Carebear (Ep. 200 - Kevin Yee)

November 1, 2018 Matthew Baume

This Week’s Guest: Kevin Yee

We're going back into the Sewers of Paris archives this week, for an interview with ex-boybander Kevin Yee. Kevin's new comedy special recently premiered Hulu, as part of the Comedy InvAsian series. He's been a performer for almost all his life, with his career taking a wild twist in his teens when he was cast in a 90s boy band. Three years later, things hadn't quite turned out as he'd hoped, and he thought his dreams of performing were over before he had even reached adulthood.

These days things are looking a bit better -- in addition to his Hulu special, you can hear him on the podcast 2 Dope Queens, and at the upcoming Cucalorus Festival and Dead Crow Comedy Comedy room in November. And you can get the story of his journey from boy band to stand up right now in our conversation.

Quick reminder that the very first Queens of Adventure livestream is coming up -- November 4 at 1pm pacific. It's a game of Dungeons and Dragons played live, with queens in full drag; and it's a fundraiser to benefit Seattle Children's Hospital. Get the details and watch us live at bit.ly/extralifeseattle.

This Week’s Recommendation: Double Life

I met Kevin a couple years ago, long after he put the boy band and clothing store behind him and found his calling in comedy. He is even more fun and funny in person than he is on stage, and I'm so glad I know THAT Kevin, the real Kevin, and that as awful as his time in the band surely was, that it only strengthened his resolve to live a life that's genuine.

And as glitzy and glamorous and gay as showbusiness is, it's long had a way of forcing people to repress their true selves, forcing queer entertainers to adopt a straight facade. That a disservice not just to artists, but also to audiences -- whether and actor or a singer or painter or a poet, art need honesty in order to work.

For my recommendation this week, I'd like to check out the book Double Life, by Alan Shayne and Norman Sunshine. The two men met in June of 1958, when Norman spotted Alan onstage on the Broadway show Jamaica. And over their six decades together, they've worked onstage, in television, in advertising, in visual arts -- and the memoir they wrote a few years back is a meticulous chronicle of how their lives were shaped by the various closets they endured.

Double Life is a fascinating glimpse at the ways that the entertainment industry forced gay men to remain closeted, to deny their own existence. It's also a tender love letter between two men who shared each other's lives, often through times when only they and their closest friends could know what those lives truly were. And it's a reminder of how lucky we are to live in a time when artists and their art can be honest, and are no longer forced to wear a straight face.

Stuff We Talked About

You Were Great in Lawnmower Man (Ep. 199 - Neuromancer)

October 25, 2018 Matthew Baume

This Week’s Guest: Adam Koebel

This week's guest is an imaginary creature -- or at least, that's primarily how the public knows him, though character and places he invents. Every day, Adam Koebel runs role-playing games where players invent new personas, work together to solve problems, and tell stories that exist in their collective imaginations. He's also the co-creator of Dungeon World, a game that's driven by the relationships between characters. As a result, a lot of Adam's time is spent inhabiting roles and expressing fantastic identities -- but in all of them, there's a little germ of who he truly is -- the strange outcast who left a corporate job to spend every day playing games.

And we're just a few days away from our weeklong livestream of games, a fundraiser for Seattle Children's Hospital! Starting on October 28, I'll be hosting a big gay game of Dungeons & Dragons featuring Comedian Bryan Safi, Culture Critic Carlos Maza, Writer Anthony Oliveira, and Scholar Bryan Wuest. Then I'll be streaming games every day from October 29 to November 3. And on Sunday, November 4th, join us for another game of D&D featuring the drag queen cast of Queens of Adventure in full drag! We'll be serving looks, interacting with viewers, and encouraging everyone to donate to Seattle Children's Hospital -- 100% of everything you give goes straight to the hospital. Get the details and watch us live at bit.ly/extralifeseattle. See you starting October 28.

BTW, I hope you'll also join us for the next Sewers of Paris live chat, with special guest Seattle drag superstar Arson Nicki. It’s Saturday October 27 at 2pm pacific. There's a link at the top of the Sewers of Paris twitter feed.

This Week’s Recommendation: Once More into the Dungeon… World

Thanks again to Adam for joining me. We talked a bit about how Adam runs he games, makes room for people to express themselves, and encourages folks to explore their connections with each other. And my recommendation this week is to watch that first hand -- you can follow Adam on Twitch, or check Twitter to see when he'll be going live. But a particularly fun game that I recommend happened a few months ago at GenCon, and so I suggest you check out his session Once More into the Dungeon... World. There's a link to the video at SewersOfParis.com.

One of the things that stands out to me in the session is how kindly Adam presses the players to open up about their characters. It's not easy to share something creative that you made, especially after you whipped it up right there on the spot in front of an audience of strangers. So Adam takes it step by step, throwing out a few questions to each player at the start and then sitting back while they talk, occasionally signaling when they're on a particularly fun track.

Why does it matter if people have help playing games? Well, because games -- particularly role-playing games -- are really stories we tell about ourselves, even when it looks like they're about monsters and halflings. When we put on disguises, try out new accents, give ourselves a new name or a new species, that doesn't just come from nowhere, it comes from someplace deeply personal within each of us. And often it's a place we've been reluctant to reveal before a game came along to give us a safe place to show it off.

It's a strange tension that games offer -- one one hand an expression of the imaginary, but on the other sometimes more personal and revealing than we are in our normal lives. That's the beauty of play, and why games have the power to connect us to each other. And it's why it's such a pleasure to watch Adam at work.

Stuff We Talked About

Neuromancer

By William Gibson

Dungeon World

By Sage LaTorra, Adam Koebel

The Go-Out Girls (Ep. 198 - Alaska Thunderf*ck)

October 23, 2018 Matthew Baume

This Week’s Guest: Alaska Thunderf*ck and Jeremy

We've got a special two for one deal on this episode: Drag Race star Alaska, and her friend and collaborator Jeremy. With a friendship dating back to their weird college days, Alaska and Jeremy recently released an album of songs called Amethyst Journey that is surprisingly sweet and folksy. We talk about all about their early influences, watching Rocky Horror together on a little laptop screen, and also the creation of Alaska, the time they sang Dolly Parton songs so loud the cops were called, and also how Alaska bombed her first audition from drag race -- plus we'll also have a very brief cameo from Alaska's mom.

Because of their busy travel schedule, Alaska and Jeremy were only able to do an interview from the road, so you'll hear a little background noise in our interview. I've cleaned up the sound quality a bit and I hope it doesn't distract too much from their fabulous stories.

Also, speaking of The Rocky Horror Picture Show -- I posted a brand new video in my Culture Cruise series last week. It's a deep dive on how that film went from being a commercial failure to a cultural phenomenon, and why it's such an important midnight movie for outcasts and weirdos. Head over to YouTube and search for Rocky Horror Culture Cruise to watch that.

This Week’s Recommendation: The Drag Roast of Heklina

Thanks again to Alaska and Jeremy for joining me for a lovely chat. If you're looking for more fun times with Alaska, check out the drag roast of Heklina -- a live show at the Castro theater that was filmed, and is now popping up at queer film festivals and occasionally online.

Alaska's joined onstage by drag legends Peaches Christ, Jackie Beat, Jinkx Monsoon, and why not, the Julie Brown who is not downtown. They are all merciless in their attacks on Heklina and each other, and when I watched the video in a theater last week, there were almost as many gasps as there were laughs. It is also, of course, hilarious and occasionally heartfelt, as when Peaches concludes her roasting with a genuine recognition that she can't imagine life without her good friend.

But mostly it's one solid punch line after another. I'm not usually a fan of the roast, since for heaven't sake the world is mean enough already. But behind the teasing at this particular show was a deep affection, and a camaraderie that comes of having spent years together in the smallest subculture of a subculture of a subculture.

Moving as they do in a very small community, performers like Alaska and Jinkx and Heklina get to know each other better than most friends or coworkers or even family. And when they get up on stage to tease each other, it's like a little glimpse into a private world we rarely get to see -- at least not at such length. The fact that they all laugh at each other's quips and insults lets us know there's no harm done, it's all said out of love, and they're all in on the joke. And now, as an extension of their queer performer family, we are too.

Stuff We Talked About

There's no Comedy Without Conflict (Ep. 197 - Improv)

October 18, 2018 Matthew Baume

This Week’s Guest: Michael Henry

How do you muster the nerve to keep going when it seems like the odds are stacked against you? My guest this week picked up some life advice from improv comedy -- in particular, the lesson to say yes and then heighten whatever's happened so far. Though you may know Michael Henry from his YouTube comedy videos, his acting background is far more serious, and he expected to become a serious dramatic actor. The fact that he could only seem to make audiences laugh troubled him for years -- until he realized he could say yes to comedy, and the unexpected direction it would take him.

We'll have that conversation in a minute. But first I want to invite you to a weeklong livestream of games starting Sunday, October 28! It's the return of Extra Life, an annual fundraiser for Seattle Children's Hospital. We're kicking the week off with a big gay game of Dungeons & Dragons featuring Comedian Bryan Safi, Culture Critic Carlos Maza, Writer Anthony Oliveira, and Scholar Bryan Wuest. Then I'll be streaming games every day from October 29 to November 3. And on Sunday, November 4th, join us for another game of D&D featuring the drag queen cast of Queens of Adventure in full drag! We'll be serving looks, interacting with viewers, and encouraging everyone to donate to Seattle Children's Hospital -- 100% of everything you give goes straight to the hospital. Get the details and watch us live at bit.ly/extralifeseattle. See you starting October 28.

This Week’s Recommendation: Michael’s YouTube Channel

Thanks again to Michael for joining me. You can check out his videos on YouTube, which is my recommendation this week. They're all super short AND YET I keep finding myself spending way too much time clicking through one after another after the next. In particular, look for the video with the startling title "This video is about HIV."

As advertised, the video is about HIV. It's under 2 minutes, but in that time, we see a lightning-fast montage of gay men talking about -- or avoiding -- conversations about sex and health. Not only is it funny, with a solid punchline on average every three seconds, but it is actually one of the most educational and honest lessons on HIV I've seen in a long time, covering topics like testing and PrEP and stigma. What I love about the video is that it jumps through every conversation queer guys need to have about AIDS and feel weird about bringing up -- but hopefully a little less weird after this video deflates the somber attitude around STIs.

But that's not all! There's also a great video about why men call each other masculine nicknames; and another about the privilege of being pretty; one about how straight guys talk to gay guys about whether other men are attractive; and one about deciding whether or not to be a sex object. They're all short and pithy and refer directly to some aspect of queer culture that it is about time someone brought up. As you watch, you may feel about 50% vindicated and 50% called out. Which is about the right balance for any great work of art. Or YouTube video.

My First Job with RuPaul (Ep. 196 - Jamal Terry-Sims)

October 11, 2018 Matthew Baume

This Week’s Guest: Jamal Terry-Sims

You've seen this week's guest on RuPaul's Drag Race, and you've seen his choreography in Footloose, on the Emmys, and videos and stage shows for Jennifer Lopez, Madonna, and the Spice Girls -- despite having never taken a dance class. Jamal Sims' dream began when he saw The Wiz and knew he needed to be up on stage dancing. And now, after a career spanning nearly three decades, he's shining a spotlight on up-and-comers with the documentary When the Beat Drops.

BTW, I hope you'll also join us for the next Sewers of Paris live chat, with special guest Trish Bendix -- managing editor of Into, the queer news site that's a part of Grindr. That's on Saturday October 13 at 2pm pacific. There's a link at the top of the Sewers of Paris twitter feed.

This Week’s Recommendation: The Wiz

Thanks again to Jamal for joining me. He mentioned The Wiz as an early inspiration, and if you haven't seen that film for heaven's sake what are you waiting for. There have been countless iterations of the Wizard of Oz story, from a forgotten 1910 silent film to the the 1939 classic to last year's Emerald City series, cancelled after its first season.

The Wiz originated on Broadway in 1974 before heading to the screen in 1978. It's a uniquely African American take on fantasy worlds, melding contemporary music with black stars and magical cityscapes. The result is a movie infused with beauty and pride, and an empowering finale that in my opinion outdoes Glinda's "you've always had the power" scene from the 1939 version.

The Wiz is pure 70s, and not every moment ages well. But if you buy into the campy disco and Michael's somewhat prolonged clown shtick and a bit of a meander around the middle, you'll be rewarded by a joyful, empowering, uplifting climax that doesn't just belong to Dorothy but to the audience as well.

I've always felt that a weakness of the classic Wizard of Oz is that Dorothy is forced to leave her better world behind and return to the black and white, like her big lesson has been that she was wrong to dream. In the Wiz, Dorothy and the audience see a better world, where its possible to tap into inner strength and literally peel away the disguises that only served as tools of injustice.

As in other tellings, Diana Ross as Dorothy unites with a chosen family. But in this version, she returns home to the city triumphant, empowered, forever changed -- and unwilling to ever participate in her own oppression.

That's a vision that was particularly meaningful to the audiences that The Wiz was addressing in the 1970s. And wouldn't you know it, themes of liberation are still meaningful to this day.

Stuff We Talked About

The First Time I Could be a Gay Person (Ep. 195 - Alien)

October 4, 2018 Matthew Baume

This Week’s Guest: Nathaniel Atcheson

My guest this week is Nathaniel Atcheson, writer and director of the film Domain, which comes out this week. Like the movies that inspired him as a kid, Domain is a story about isolation and loneliness and coping with the fear of being life-threateningly disconnected from other people. That might sound grim, but behind the scenes of his work, Nathaniel is hardly disconnected -- for him, making films is a way of finding a union with other people, even in the face of seemingly insurmountable obstacles. And human capacity to overcome obstacles can surprise us -- for example, when Nathaniel met the man who he would, against considerable odds, one day marry.

This Week’s Recommendation: Dune

Thanks again to Nathaniel for joining me. You can check out his new film, now available to stream, at DomainTheMovie.com. For my recommendation this week, I went looking for some queer science fiction -- spoiler alert, pickings are a bit slim. That's not to say there's none -- an episode of Deep Space Nice, some Dr. Who, Wizards vs Aliens -- but the offerings pale in comparison to heterosexuals bumbling through space.

But I do think you should check out some extremely compelling -- and weird -- queer visions of the future, and those are the scenes with Baron Harkonnen in David Lynch's 1984 film Dune. Just to prepare you, it is a long and very strange film, so even though I do think you should watch the whole thing, I'll forgive you if you seek out relevant clips on YouTube. You'll want to see the scene where Sting appears in a thong that looks like a piece of scenery in an art-deco theater. And then later there's a horrifying moment when the evil Baron commits a particularly atrocious act with a young man's heart.

The scene is with the heart is, and it's important that you know this, VERY upsetting. I do not recommend this scene because it's a delightful depiction of queer desire. On the contrary, it is grotesque. But the images, if you are confident you can stomach them, are so indelible because they feature a marriage of beauty -- as represented by the healthy, attractive young men -- and the hideous, represented by the unspeakable villainy and physical decay of the Baron. There's a simultaneous attraction and repulsion that makes the cruelty on screen even more upsetting.

There are a lot of problems with this movie, and not just with the ways that Lynch chose to associate ugliness with queerness and disability and size. But the combination of the beautiful and the horrible are so effectively nauseating that they evoke to me the worst anxieties about being gay -- the longing and the terror, the appetite and the guilt. It's dark, and horrible, and if you need a palette cleanser afterwards there's fortunately some hilariously goofy wire work in the scene; so if you don't want to see blood, you can always laugh at THAT.

Stuff we Talked About

Come to the Party, it's Weird (Ep. 194 - Cheryl)

September 27, 2018 Matthew Baume

This Week’s Guest: Nick Schiarizzi

How do you make friends as an adult? Without school to throw lots of people together in far greater combinations than a workplace, it's easy to feel stuck in the wrong group -- especially when other gays are hard to find. So my guest this week did something about that. Nick Schiarizzi is the co-founder of the brutally bizarre dance party Cheryl, where everyone comes expecting something weird and leaves having something even weirder. But you'd never guess it to look at him -- Nick is calm, deadpan, and for most of his life terrified to dance. But when he found himself feeling lonely and frustrated as a young adult, he decided to find a way to break through his inhibitions to he could finally find others like him.

BTW, I hope you'll join us for the next Sewers of Paris live chat. It's on Saturday September 29th at 2pm pacific. There's a link at the top of the Sewers of Paris twitter feed.

This Week’s Recommendation: Cheryl

Thanks again to Nick for joining me. I do heartily recommend those Cheryl parties. But if you're not in New York or a city where the party's on tour, you can experience a tiny taste of the next best thing by looking up their promo videos. Go to CherylWillRuinYourLife.info and click through the videos to find a lengthy collection spanning a decade of festive, colorful, and mystifying videos that capture the very strangest nocturnal queer culture that New York has to offer.

In those Cheryl videos you'll catch a glimpse of hundreds of people gathering together under cover of dark and buffeted by bass, dancing and partying and pushing boundaries for the sake of pushing boundaries. Sometimes art is meaningful, and other times the meaningless is the meaning. That, and kicking back to just enjoy yourself as extravagantly as possible while also spending as little money as possible. And what could be a more fundamental definition of queer culture than that?

So go -- watch some videos, get confused, get excited, and then find your way to creating something extremely peculiar of your own that definitely shouldn't exist, but does.

Stuff We Talked About

About The Sewers of Paris

The Sewers of Paris is a podcast about how queer lives are shaped by our favorite books, movies, music, and shows. Each week, guests open up about their secret struggles, hidden passions, and surprising triumphs by plucking a piece of entertainment from their past and answering the question: What’s the entertainment that changed your life?

About Defining Marriage

Each week on Defining Marriage, hosts Matt Baume and James Morris chat about what's happening with marriage equality, featuring frequent digressions into pop culture, silly banter, and the jokes and quibbles that have kept them together as a couple for over a decade.

The first eighteen episodes of the podcast contain the complete audiobook version of the book Defining Marriage, which traces the decades-long evolution of marriage through the personal stories of those who lived through it, featuring personal insights from the lives of Evan Wolfson, Dan Savage, Ken Mehlman, Dustin Lance Black, and many more.

About Matt's So-Cast Pod

Revisit the iconic '90s drama My So-Called Life, one episode at a time. Every week, host Matt Baume & his guests delve into the teen angst, the grown-up turmoil, and the endless flannel of the 90s -- and examine the show's impact on television and our lives.